Antony,
You are right. I do a lot of historic restoration type work. I normally get turned in the right direction for the materials necessary not only from chemical analysis, but I study the heritage of the architect. It is almost more accurate than the analytical results. I have great respect for European art, as that is the foundation for our structures.
And a big 'ol amen to ya brutha for nixing the term "Venetian plaster" it is such a bastardized term. For people to really grasp an understanding of what it is that a true artisan does, they need to understand not only the correct terminology, but also the science and history behind the material. No matter what the field. For instance, what is the difference between scumble and glaze? Most American finishers can not tell you.

Antony, you sound like a distributor of these products. I clicked on the website linked to your name in your profile, and it really doesnt show me a whole lot.

Fritz...actually you got some part right. My family is engaged in the whole process of what we call the full circle of any ancient or modern, traditional or high tech coating, architectural finish, decorative, artistic, you name it. As we are from the same family but different in nature, all of us have an inclination in one direction or another. We have always developed our own products, manufactured according to what was passed on by our father and his father before that, promoting also other products through licenses, distributing them in a proper matter and we have a seperate division in the Benelux and on the Dutch Antilleans that is dedicated to a whole spectrum of applications. These application divisions are coordinated by my person so most of the time I travel, train people, organize projects and execute them as well and efficient as I can. These projects include, architectural finishes such as inorganic texture coatings, or lime based plasters, or synthetic plasters, or the other extreme high temp coatings in refineries. But also normal paint jobs in resorts or condominiums. I've been doing this since I was 10 years old. At this age I got my first color combination right, a week before my birthday. So basically it was school and then of to match colors and play with pigments, solvents, resins, additives, extenders, fillers, in short all the raw materials you could imagine. Maybe know you have a better understanding were I come from and nice picture by the way.

Antony

"Now you have an idea why your Safra is more easily to apply. This does not mean that Safra is not a natural lime based plaster".
And I guess you have used Safra's lime plasters or are you just assuming...
Doyle

Amy..nice to know that you agree. It's funny I am doing a historic restoration of a National Museum right now using mainly mineral based coatings. I know how to analyse the structure and the ingredients [e.g. sands that were used in certain period when the building was erected and so forth, things I know you are more than familiar with] but the most valuable thing I found was when I got hold of the day to day log of the architect [in those days a "commandeur", don't know the exact english word for it]. Thank god he was dutch for he kept even notes on how he prepared all the layers, step by step. , I thought for my guys had "brewed" their own stuff according to spec. but not according to what I consider would be right.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Doyle,

Safra and Spatula Stuhhi, and found them equally good italian plasters.

Antony

Doyle, Safra [many years ago a bucket that my dad dropped of at the Ramada] and Spatula Stuhhi and I found them both good plasters.

Antony

I edited your post, please refrain from using obscenities.
Doyle

Doyle...I hope you don't mean me because I have offended no one as far as I can read. I am curious and I think you can give me a precise answer on the following matter. The estuco veneziano from Safra is it still using an acrylic resin as the main binder?.

Antony

No, I meant the word you used on your post. This is open to all people and I keep profanity off the site. All the more so on the open area.
Yes our Veneziano is resin, our Calcenova has no resin at all. This is why you can not get a dark color in our Calcenova. Safra produces about 80 different plasters. Some Resin, some modified and some unmodified. Rivesto is a modified plaster Steve is right in the fact that Calcenova does not smell like theirs. LOL.
Doyle

Nancy...I am absolutely not offended because you are completely right in stating what you are stating. You need highly skilled labor to apply most of the armour coat finishes and yes they look too sharp, neat and "industrial" for that matter, especially to those I think that are looking for a more artistic look. As to the application of calcenova, I can imagine that clearly. That's why we for the last years have been trying to find new ways to improve many features of natural lime plasters without breaking with tradition.

As to the products being imported out of Italy being superior to any US product in this particular field. I find that even that can be changed through more dedication in both research and development in your own country. You have some beautiful limes coming out of your country and people should take the time and dedication to experiment with what your own country has to offer.

Any experience with Tadlekt {moroccan tradition}?

Best Regards,

Antony

Antony,
Why doesn't your website show clear detailed pictures of these products you talk about?

I have heard many lines from distributors, and many have sent me samples in the mail claiming to be the best. Until now, I have not seen one that comes close. Not that I don't believe what you are saying to us in this forum, you just need something to back up the claim.

Back to topic...
Antony, I hear what you are saying; there is always another product available. But I completely disagree with the notion that Safra is lacking in historic integrity or quality.

I have been fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to go to Italy and follow Safra's finishes from a raw material, to the bucket, physically observing every step in the production of their material from dehydrating the limestone, slaking, and refining the material to end user stucco.

The thing that Safra has to offer is a huge variety of finishes from resin based to pure lime. In an effort to simplify and save time, I will compare Safra's smooth polished plasters...
Veneziano: it is fair to say that Veneziano is what you would call a "synthetic" material; bound by resin. It is easy to apply and burnish to a glossy shine. The ratio of pigment to liter of material is very high, allowing deep colors.
Calcenova Arredo: This material is a modified lime, containing a small percentage of resin. It is relatively easy to apply and burnish to a shine. It contains the properties of lime, with the advantage of resin to strengthen the final finish and allow the material to accept higher concentrations of pigment. This would fall into the category that you have spoken of in previous posts. Many materials on the market tout "pure lime" when in all reality, they are modified resin lime finishes.
Calcenova: Calcenova is nothing but lime with natural binders. It is tricky to apply; though once you have mastered the application, it glides on a wall like soft butter on toast. It is easy to burnish, once you understand the level of moisture required to accomplish the task. It does not tint to deep shades, as too much pigment will compromise the integrity of the material. It smells of pine and yeilds a beautiful glossy polish when applied correctly. Once the finish has cured, it yeilds the smokey, translucent look that only a lime plaster can achieve.

Safra does not claim that Veneziano is a "true lime". As it is not. However, they offer an extensive line of pure or true lime finishes, from smooth and polished to heavy textured finishes.

Regarding resin content in any plaster, no matter who the manufacturer may be...
Given today's building materials, there are times when there MUST be acrylic resin added to troweled materials do to the type of substrate, the location of the finish, and the level of durability desired of the final outcome. Acrylic resin, in most cases, acts as a bridge, allowing application on surfaces that if using pure lime would fail over a short period of time. Resins also allow easier maintainence and cleanability.

So in summation, to say that Safra is an inferior product in today's market, is just not so.
I mentioned that I do my fair share of restoration work, I have used Safra's finishes to accomplish many historic walls because of their knowledge of chemistry, history and quality, precise craftsmanship that goes into each liter of product, no matter what the resin content. On the flip side of the coin, I also do my fair share of residential and commercial work. Again, Safra has been able to offer a product for each and every scenario that has come my way.
Now, while I am very partial to Safra materials, they are not the ONLY materials that I use. I still use cheaper synthetic finishes to maintain budgets and I still do my fair share of painted finishes.
Not only do I share your passion for history, but much like you I come from a family heritage (German, Greek) of art, chemistry and decorative finishing. I don't remember a time in my life where I did not know how to create. My own children are being reared in the same tradition.

Can someone explain what 'resin' is? I tell people that calcenova is all natural...lime and binders and that Veneziano is a resin plaster.... They want to know what resin is and I don't know what to tell them... Thanks

I remember in class James stated that SAFRA studied the history of IP and worked on formulating as close to the historical as possible. Now for the sake of cost and practicality it is impossible for any of today's manufacturers of IP to say they are truly authentic. Today's IP is mostly decorative in it's application with mainly 3 layers of product only being applied over JC or drywall. In the ancient times, joint compound and drywall did not exist so not one IP is following the historical application, for the majority of application.

I think it's good that SAFRA offers a choice between natural and synthetic. Why not use today's technology to a great looking wall?

One product from SAFRA which I have never seen from any manufacturer is the Montovano finish. I was blown away by both the plaster and the application method. I have seen knockoff applications that claim a montovano look, but it is far from that.

Doyle, I guess the smell of dirt brings me back to my childhood days.... not that we were a farming family, but when i used to eat it as a baby....mmm..mmm.. good.